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March 8, 2008
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FFA PvP Games

Sat Mar 8, 2008, 8:25 AM


Isn't it quite funny that some of my first longer posts since a looooooong time is about gaming not painting? Well it is kinda logical since I haven't really painted in almost over a year, gaming however I never stopped. Quite the opposite. It provides me with a welcomed emptiness of my brain while playing or grinding - being totally involved into something without having to really deal with anything else that might occupy my mind otherwise.

So, yeah. That means I have been downloading every free MMO I could the past few month - also included going back to Vanguard for a short visit to my lvl 60 monk and other trips down memory lane (like DAoC and AO for example). My I-net is currently also busy with downloading all the patches for WoW I missed since playing back in 2006 (yeah yeah I know....wow sucks)

Anyway, the reason for this post is actually something slightly different but reading a lot of forums linked to MMOs is a huge hobby of mine and I just find it slightly amusing how many people are linking FFA PvP games immediately with griefing.

For the not so geeky: FFA PvP = Free for All Player vs. Player Games (in this case I am talking about MMOs btw).

So, imagine you can attack any player anytime and try to kill him or her. Sounds like a huge fun breaker to you, doesn't it? Asshat player xy is just out to ruin everyone elses game experience with just randomly killing them left and right.

So, well. That is what we would call griefing, right? Ruining someone elses gameplay fun with being a total idiot.

All right, let me look at normal games without any pvp:
I am sitting at my favorite hunting spot killing rats (yay for rats!) Player x comes along who has the same quest or is grinding on the same mobs. So he goes on taking my kills because he thinks it's fun. Nothing I can do about. Well I can report him/her but that rarely does any good.

Or

Player xy is annoying as hell over public chat. Insulting Countries or making racial jokes. Some think it's funny, I don't. Nothing I can do about that. Report him maybe..

Or

Idiot xy is cheating on a trade - nothing I can to do prove it to the GMs (most probably).
I could probably think of more examples of griefing in a normal non pvp game but I think you get the point.

Let's now move on to pvp games with factions and level areas within which you can attack other players (WoW, Vanguard or EQ2 for example)

The same as above applies if you have a member of your own alliance/faction grief you.
On the other hand you might be able to get back to that idiot who is in the opposed faction.

But behold and beware if he/she has better gear and higher level you get your ass handed without a chance. Besides what would keep that person from doing it again? Being killed in any of those games doesn't really hurt so is no incentive to play nice or not mess with the wrong people, right?

Now take FFA PvP Servers for Games with level and classes.

On those you are mostly restricted to be able to attack people say within 10 level range. Good thought initially but the problem is that:

a) you see the other persons level and most  griefers pray on the weak. Making sure they only attack people they overpower in level (and thus in pretty much every game - in skills. Since skill gain is linked to level).

b) Try to be sure to get the overhand in gear - too many variables that can just ruin the outcom of a "fair fight"

Once again, also hardly any loss for dying thus no real danger in actually attacking someone.

All those example in my opinion don't do anything against griefing - if anything they encourage or at least don't fight it hard enough. Luckily there are not that many idiots playing those kind of games but nevertheless every MMO, no matter what kind of has those.

Now take the FFA PvP approach without level and class.

I can attack any person I want but do I want to do that?
First of - I have absolutely no indication of what skills that character/person has. No idea how skilled that person is or how long he or she played. I also might have a harsh penalty if I die. So I am really thinking about the decision of just randomly attacking anyone I see or pissing them off for that matter.

Not to mention, that person might have many friends to backup on at a later time.

The other way round, if you decide to attack me without any reason whatsoever, maybe even being the same race as I am then be assured that I will call in my friends to hunt your sorry ass down for that.

Don't you think that in ffa pvp your actions count much more then in a normal non pvp class and level based game exactly BECAUSE you could attack but you also know that it will have consequences which in most other games it doesn't?

I am by no means a hard core pvper. Not at all - but I just don't understand how people can be afraid of it. Actually - I guess it is because they experienced the incidents I listed above in games that were not really laid out for pvp, maybe?

;)









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:icondeep-static:
Deep-static Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2008
Hmm yeah. I hear the new rpg game out called Fury is a pvp where being good is independent of hours played or level etc. where your own skill determines the outcome kinda like shooters. I have yet to play it though. Has anyone here?
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
I really didn't like Fury. You get thrown into battle Arenas with different settings (capture the flag, kill as many as you can and so on).
It's "free to play" but you need to buy the actual game. Besides with rl money you can unlock all the skills you normally would have to pvp for and buy with points.

Other then that it's like GW where you unlock skills and mix and match a few you can use in the arena.
I definitely wouldn't call it an mmo.
Reply
:icondeep-static:
Deep-static Featured By Owner Mar 31, 2008
Hmm okay, thanks for the heads up
Reply
:iconfuuryoku:
fuuryoku Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2008
That's interesting, Tascha. I'v been much the same in the not quite a year since Lisa Passed (Not really finishing pieces, unable to really apply myself artwise, but still gaming.)

Not particularly proud of my malaise, but that said I really have to say I've found GuildWars PVP to be a lot of fun for many of the same reasons mentioned earlier- level playing field qonce you hit lvl 20, gear is mostly irrelevant as everyone is wearing maxed armor/ wepons. It really does come down to skill build and ability to use it and work with your group.

I've since moved on to WOW, but I play on an RP server (Feathermoon) so the PVP is optional and I don't really do much of it there.
Reply
:iconmuetze:
muetze Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
MMO = PvP

Welle grund söt me susch ha besseri items zsueche oder sis lvl zerhöhe?

Allgemein muen ich säge das ich online games wos zB mehreri dungeon referenze git ned gern han. i muen alli spiler chöne gseh und jage. fends doof wenns för jedi party en eigne dungeon/area macht. da chamer jo ned pvp'e.

I spille im moment nur lineage2. Das lauft döt eso:
- ich haue en andere spiler -> ich werde blau -> alli chönd mich jetz agrife/umbringe -> sie werdend au blau -> kettereaktion
- ich kille en andere spiler wo sich ned wehrt -> ich werde rot -> alli chönd mch jetz agrife/umbringe -> sie werdend ned blau -> wenn ich rot stirbe verlüre ich items -> die andere chönd sie chlaue

mit disem system isch pvp spannend. eifach go low-lvls kille isch möglich aber riskant. well mer jo sies züg cha verlüre wemmer rot isch.

clans chönd au clanwars starte.. denne chamer de anderi clan eifach so kille ohni rot zwerde (mer wird aber blau)

i muen ehrlich sie ich spile nor fürs pvp. gegnerischi burge belagere und inäh isch eifach spannender als 1000 monster go kille. lineage2 isch sicher eis vo de beschte mass pvp online games wo ich kenne.

PS: l2 isch mitlerwile au gratis spielbar (private servers)
Reply
:iconmuetze:
muetze Featured By Owner Mar 10, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
[link]

dasch es filmli vomene l2 uf private server mit belagerig und pvp.. falls du interessiert bisch mol drizluege
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
Ich kenne L2 ;)
habe so ziemlich alles an mmo gespielt was es gibt :)
Reply
:iconmuetze:
muetze Featured By Owner Mar 13, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
kannst du mir ein paar empfehlen?

guild wars, ao etc gefallen mir vom konzept her nicht. wow tut meinen augen weh.
gibts noch andere gute mmo wo alle spieler auf einer spielinstanz spielen?
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:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 13, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
pvp oder normal oder mix oder was? :)
Reply
:iconmuetze:
muetze Featured By Owner Mar 14, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
focus auf gutem pvp.. genre kann classic rpg oder au science fiction sein. das is mir nich so wichtig..
Reply
:iconbendouglasuk:
BenDouglasUK Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2008
I hear you Tascha. I used to play WoW, in fact I used to play MANY MMOs and I never got on with PVP. Sometimes I would play the battlegrounds on WoW for the one off rank or something, but I got tired of being whomped by players 8 levels higher than me and in gear that was considerably superior. It was mainly the fact that they didn't win by any measure of skill that annoyed me so much. Being 8 levels higher than someone and having gear that cost 20 times as much really doesn't justify them shouting "L0Lz Pwn3d!" or shouting "n00b" at you. The fact was that I found grinding to be the most labroriously tedious thing ever, so running the same instance again and again for a specific piece of gear was out of the question. But eventually the realisation dawned on me that the entire game model is just grinding. "go here and kill X number of Y", or "Find item X by killing creature Y" for example. I just got tired of it, too much emphasis was placed on getting certain items and gear and levelling. The main part of WoW I liked was the roleplaying, yes I was sad and acted in character, but I found it the only way to find any interest in a game that really didn't have a storyline or quest variation. I've gone back to playing first person shooters online like Unreal Tournament 3 or Call of Duty 4 simply because you know that if you get completely owned by someone it's because they are actually either just better than you, or just got lucky and the feeling of knowing that you have a more or less equal chance of getting them back is far better than the feeling of "I better avoid that person at all costs". I have high hopes for Darkfall, so you and Henning better not let me down! :D Oh if you really want relentlessly ruthless PVP that has dire consequences then try EVE Online, it's just like real life - completely unfair at every turn! Although, for some strange reason I prefer it over many MMOs around at the moment, WoW included.

I hope you're getting on fine and feeling well in yourself :)
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
I totally agree about the item stuff.
Eve I tried, but I just can't wrap my head about working on my skills while being offline (and the fact that I don't have a real in game avatar of myself).

And no worries DF is coming along great :)
Reply
:iconbendouglasuk:
BenDouglasUK Featured By Owner Mar 15, 2008
I think the real time levelling was one of my favourite features. It meant i could level my skills while I was working :D Great to hear about DF, definitely on my "To Buy List".
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
It just felt really disconnected to level out of game. Part of a MMO experience for me is working on something - or way there, that's at last in level and class based games the main interest point for me :)
Reply
:iconbendouglasuk:
BenDouglasUK Featured By Owner Mar 21, 2008
Cool, each to their own :lol: I'm looking forward to seeing how a classless game works so here's hoping DF will be around soon :D Best of luck with anything you guys have left to do with it!
Reply
:iconmayec:
mayec Featured By Owner Mar 9, 2008  Professional Filmographer
I think that well-implemented and balanced PVP is closer to the real-world. In real life, people step on each other, even if not usually in a physical way. We also consider, before "attacking" others, what the consequences could be, and if they have protection or support that could set us off in failure and making ourselves some "powerful" enemies, or getting into trouble.

I'm not saying that games should be made as some kind of "training for life" (wich they often are), but sometimes we get used to game dynamics and build our real world models through them, the same way we sometimes subconsciously expect things to happen the way they would happen in movies and stories, because our mind is so set on narrative models.
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:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 11, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
good points :)
Reply
:iconmelyannam:
MelyannaM Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
Whoa a lot about PVP eh? I started to hate PVP just because :1) I don't have much time to upgrade my gear and follow "trends" 2) it's frustrating when you lose :XD:
How are you beside this?:)
And when can we expect your new works?:aww:
Reply
:iconelysiia:
Elysiia Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008  Hobbyist General Artist
Thats one thing I like about Guild Wars pvp, and the level cap being 20 as well as armors/weapons everyones going to have max ones. So all in all it really just matters what skills you bring to it. Though that's just pvp, in pve you can't attack any person at just random. Who knows what GW2 will bring though.
Reply
:iconjinh-yuhn:
jinh-yuhn Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
i play WoW atm and i kinda avoid pvp because if this new stupid system they put in that REQUIRES u to obtain pvp gear to be effective in pvp otherwise u get pwnt badly. unlike before u can just pvp in any gear and still be effective, so now i have to either pick pvp, or pve route, and unless u play ALOT its hard to invest in both.

ive played both on pvp servers and pve, while i find pve server more relaxing, pvp servers does have its fun, being paranoid all the time in case someone's going to gank u has its own excitement in a way lol. WoW also has a system where u can join a pvp environment even though you're on a pve server so in a way u can have your cake and eat it too kinda. but doesnt really matter anyway, WoW isnt a free MMO.

i kinda miss good ole warcraft3/starcraft type of pvp. no lvling at all, just join a game, play get ur kicks and dont gotta worry about out gear/skill someone, everyone is on the same level, only real difference is who micro manages better and has more experiance.

anyway hope u find something that suits ur playstyle lol /hug =)
Reply
:iconayas-shadow:
ayas-shadow Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
Well, being an avid player of WoW...(with over 20 characters spread out over numerous servers) I enjoy the game. I do NOT like OPVP MOST of the time as I wind up dead a LOT because of players of the opposite afction that are high enough compaired to me to kill me in 1-2 shots. Now TECHNICALLY, if you can prove it's hapening a lot, to you or to other 'lowbies' with the SAME player/group of players doing the attacking over and extended period of time, it CAN get thier accounts closed...but it's hard to prove. As in...a mod has to be available to look into hte complaint and actually CATCH these players doing it. Doesn't happen often. However, to avoid PVP, you can always choose an RP server. There, you can toggle PVP off and on. I have characters on normal servers (PVP in 'contested territory' or opposing faction territory after a certain lvl with the ability to toggle PVP off in 'home faction' territory), on PVP servers (stuck in PVP mode after hitting a certain lvl or going out into contested territory, no toggle off option) AND on RP servers. If I feel like risking PVP action, I play normal servers. If I I don't care one way or the other about being killed...a lot...in PVP action, I play PVP servers. When I need a break from PVP I play RP servers. Personally, I enjopy the game enough to put up with dying a lot when in the 'wrong' territory. HOWEVER...I think that they SHOULD update the PVP system so that you can not attack people who will give you no honor for killing them. I don't think it'll ever happen, so as long as I enjoy gameplay there, I'll deal with systems that don't work as well as they should. And when I get totally sick of things in WoW, I'll jump over to playing GW (Guild Wars for any who don't know) even if that DOESN'T happen often.
Reply
:iconasoftermurder:
asoftermurder Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
I dislike FFA PvP simply because I could NEVER level. I guess the server I played just happened to be FILLED with assholes. Once I got out of the safety zone of level 50 and was open to attacks, I averaged like 3 levels a day because it was RO, and whenever you die in RO you lose an experience point and I died like every two minutes. xDD Lol. RO is definitely not meant for open PvP. FFA PvP should only occur on games built for it. Otherwise the conflicting systems just makes it sort of dumb.
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
That's the reason I think Levels have no place in a pvp system :)
Reply
:iconormzen:
ormzen Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
Yay for Darkfall!
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
I just don't understand why no one else is doing something similar. AoC seems to be a cool idea but once again with the classes and levels -.-
Reply
:iconbeannighe:
Beannighe Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
I've been playing pvp mmo's for a number of years and before that mostly FPS games, the Starseige: Tribes, Quake and Unreal series being the most prominent . I play mostly WoW now because there really isn't that much out there that hasn't copied Blizz' act and they keep adding content, PvP being one of the more prominent types. Case in point, some guildies and I spent the better part of 3 hours holding two enemy towns . Unfortuneatly , you can't burn or break these towns like in Shadowbane .
If you die, you respawn, and your gear takes minimal damage . In Shadowbane they could loot your corpse, so if you were carrying major coin, new gear, Runes, etc...its gone . FFA PvP had dire consequences if you died and ran about with all your goodies in your sacks. Your gear took damage too in relation to the level and number of attackers. Your repair costs sometimes were omfgz!
More to the point, games like WoW with their PvP model are safe, the only thing that may get hurt if you let it is your pride . PvPing takes practice and knowing the skills your character has, and those of your opponent. Rolling different classes of 'toons is a way to stave off boredom and learn an insight to the inherent strengths and weaknesses of each class.
There are 3 PvP mmos coming out that my guild and I have been following for some time. Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, and DarkFall , with Darkfall promising full loot FFA PvP..with consequences . You would have to go the website to see what those are if you haven't already.=)
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:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
Oh believe me - I know about DF ;)
Reply
:iconbeannighe:
Beannighe Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
I know you do, stinker ! =). My guildies are waiting ..since AoC may be another guild wars clone to some extent and the hardcore lads are crying for the blood of untold foes!
Reply
:iconbeannighe:
Beannighe Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008
Btw, how are you feeling these days? Any progress in your battles with your health issues ?
Reply
:iconkyena:
Kyena Featured By Owner Mar 8, 2008  Professional Digital Artist
Thanks for asking - it's a constant up and down with currently being more on the up side (mostly due to the warm and sunny weather here in Greece - it helps with my spirits :))
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